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Permalink Reply by moldoveanu.marius on January 4, 2013 at 5:45am

Two electrodes mean 13.5-13.8 Volts per cell. 60-70 W at 5 A

It must rise the water temperature and produce some steam.

Alkaline steam - due KOH.

KOH may react on manifold with incoming CO2 ( from air ) and form a bicarbonate salt that deposit there. Mostly OH,  H2 and O2 enter in the engine.

The results should be better than dry Oxy-Hydrogen; even better than large volumes of gas. Large volumes  require power to be produced and balance is critical to get results from dry gas without any engine tuning.

Normal diesel combustion reaction is difficult, imply large "participants" :

4 C12H23 + 71 O2 = 48 CO2 + 46 H2O

Oxygen will react with Hydrogen to form "neutral' water H2O and leave the Carbon alone, to react with it. But the water "envelope" restrain total combustion and that require a certain injection time advance to complete the chemical reaction and surplus of Oxygen ( lean mixture and diesels work in that way ).

Timing in advance is counter - productive in the mechanical terms.

OH( -)  in vapor forms may react with diesel to release the Carbon and form Hydronium during injection, before ignition

2 C12H23 + 23 OH = 24 C + 23 H3O 

Other possible reaction is formation of H2O2 ( Hydrogen peroxide) from OH during compression and that will release even more thermal energy 

2OH=H2O2

2 C12H23 + 71 H2O2 = 24 CO2 + 94 H2O

In any case the  diesel fuel " fragmentation " allow better chemical reactions and  form more water at same injection time.

More water is good since make temperature to pressure conversion more efficient but most of times the chemistry not "match" the mechanics!

Ionized water increase the conversion to pressure, the motive force, at better injection timing than eventual neutral water injection - who advance it.

Dry oxyhydrogen, HHO or any names may carry that gas, will not improve in significant way the combustion unless the engine is not respectively tuned. 

First time indeed, will clean the carbon deposited on engine and noticeable savings can be reported.

But the load required to produce the Hydrogen will increase the fuel injection and reduce the engine RPM increasing the torque and fuel consumption may be smaller or the same despite the extra load in a specific operating "window" depending by electrical efficiency of alternator/ generator assembly, engine type ( long - short stroke ) etc.

Compared with "original" engine is anyway better due continuous engine decalamination ( carbon cleaning).

 For fuel savings need ionized water and hydrogen to improve the temperature to pressure conversion and restore the flammability of mixture.

On the gasoline engine and dry oxyhydrogen I test the "Check Engine" warning light on board is caused by speed sensor readings - code P0502 -  and not by extra oxygen.

With Hydrogen system ON the RPM drop from 850 RPM to 820-830 RPM, switch the ignition time from 3 degrees to 7-9 degrees but injection time increase from 3.0 ms to 3.2 ms.

Fuel consumption increase.

Oxygen sensor emulator restore the ignition time and keep lower 830  RPM.

Same fuel consumption.

With ignition timing processor the RPM increase to 860-870 but injection time decrease to 2.7-2.8 ms.

Fuel saving.

next step is ionized water. is interesting to see how that influence those parameters.

Your system already do that by extra ionized water OR is just in the carbon cleaning process!

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HODINFO SPONSORPermalink Reply by javier sanchez on January 5, 2013 at 3:32pm

marius very responsive friend, but now I have my head in a mess; koh vapor is water vapor different from normal, I mean that in a cold hose 4 feet or more I have noticed that white steam continues to escape (this is good looking in a black background) if the water vapor passes through a hose condenses on the cold walls of the hose and the end is not the end, but the white smoke if KOH is seen and is therefore not steam are particles of electrolyte.

While you claim that these particles upon contact with outside air into a type of potassium bicarbonate or another salt, and can be good for combustion (talking CoMoNo rail diesel engines).

this salt or baking is not corrosive, but if that accumulates over time and can clog cap or throttle body and intake manifold, also the entrance to the intake valves, and I do not want that in my engine.

I agree with comoon rail diesel engines is difficult to get savings, but a companion of this forum says you get good results by injecting 80 mL / min of HHO (dry cell) per liter turbo engine after controlling production with a pressure switch gears so that the generator will slow, but always as close to the intake valves.

you speak of that ionized water is best, and I answer: the hho gas is ionized? I think that if it is,
but so as not to be ionized water?

comoon diesel engines in the injection rail runs on several shots, the first shot transforms hho ionized water vapor, is that correct?
then we have the injection steam main, if I'm wrong please correct me.

the other issue are the engines of a single shot, as the old diesel and gasoline engines, and I think a hho dry gas to the correct dose can do the job.

now I want to talk about the tests that you have done in the gasoline engine at low revs, and I think they do work well an engine in the regime of 800/1000 rpm is not correct, the engine must decrease time to Injection normal working speed (between 1500 and 3000 rpm)

with the help of scanner corrections Injection check short term and long term, if corrections are short-term negative then we are saving fuel.

I hope to apologize for the bad English I write.

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Permalink Reply by moldoveanu.marius on January 8, 2013 at 4:16am

Commonrail turbodiesel engine was very well responsive to wet oxyhydrogen at my last test. Again, not at idle. The load required by the electrolytic cell increase injection time. On road the torque was higher and driving at that regime where most mechanics will not agree fuel consumption was very good. Ionized water injection alone was reported to provide savings. I still working to that system who will provide ionized water steam at certain load. Oxyhydrogen alone .make.savings it the timing is modified - at idle- and TPS signal above it. Oxygen sensor emulation is required in this conditions

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walsh on January 26, 2013 at 3:44pm

I'm thinking that the greater benefits seen from the simple electrolyzer are due to higher volumes of water vapor present in the gaseous output. I've also seen simple wet cells out perform dry cells for this reason.

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HODINFO SPONSORPermalink Reply by javier sanchez on January 26, 2013 at 5:27pm

I think if this cold wet cell will not make steam, but you can see a white smoke is steam koh.
dry cell does the same, maybe the problem is given the wet cell leakage current.

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Permalink Reply by Barry Holzsweig on January 30, 2013 at 1:13pm

Javier,

Just now reading your post.

The two electrodes (bolts) are producing mostly H2 and O2 and a small amount of HHO. The cell you have with 9 plates is producing mostly HHO and small amounts of H2 and O2. These two mixtures behave differently in an engine. H2 and O2 will increase power but HHO will increase power plus fuel saving. The increase in combustion rate of the fuel air mixture when HHO is added to the engine means fuel is completely burned before the critical angle is reached. This causes the driver to lessen the pressure on the throttle thus saving fuel. Both H2 + O2 and HHO will increase mpg. HHO increases it more. Remember, you only need about 150-180ml/minute of HHO per liter of engine displacement.

As to the white powder accumulating on your throttle body, that is a major concern. The Koh or NaOH will erode the aluminum of the throttle plate to the point where it will no longer rotate open and closed. I have seen this on three different vehicles and a customer who came to us after installing an HHO system he bought off the net had to pay $600 to have his intake manifold replaced when this happened. HHO should not be injected into the intake before the throttle body. HHO should always be injected into the intake manifold where the PCV gasses re-enter the intake. You can get away with injecting H2 +O2 before the throttle body using that "Bolts" electrode generating cell. 

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Permalink Reply by moldoveanu.marius on January 31, 2013 at 6:00am

I agreed with injection point. For turbo or superchaded engines a venturi device should solve the problem ( wait for one now to test it). Still do not get an answer : what make the difference between a mixture of H2/O2 and so call HHO ? I think is ionized water contained by fresh electrolytic gases. Dry HHO is less "powerful". That water make the difference. Alkaline due the environment.To recombine OH with OH probably is a series of reaction : OH+OH=H2O2-> H2O+O and that is exotermic reaction.

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HODINFO SPONSORPermalink Reply by javier sanchez on January 31, 2013 at 3:11pm

Barry Holzsweig said:

Javier,

Just now reading your post.

The two electrodes (bolts) are producing mostly H2 and O2 and a small amount of HHO. The cell you have with 9 plates is producing mostly HHO and small amounts of H2 and O2. These two mixtures behave differently in an engine. H2 and O2 will increase power but HHO will increase power plus fuel saving. The increase in combustion rate of the fuel air mixture when HHO is added to the engine means fuel is completely burned before the critical angle is reached. This causes the driver to lessen the pressure on the throttle thus saving fuel. Both H2 + O2 and HHO will increase mpg. HHO increases it more. Remember, you only need about 150-180ml/minute of HHO per liter of engine displacement.

As to the white powder accumulating on your throttle body, that is a major concern. The Koh or NaOH will erode the aluminum of the throttle plate to the point where it will no longer rotate open and closed. I have seen this on three different vehicles and a customer who came to us after installing an HHO system he bought off the net had to pay $600 to have his intake manifold replaced when this happened. HHO should not be injected into the intake before the throttle body. HHO should always be injected into the intake manifold where the PCV gasses re-enter the intake. You can get away with injecting H2 +O2 before the throttle body using that "Bolts" electrode generating cell. 

we all know that is 2H2 + O2 hho, diatomic hydrogen.
orthohidrogeno is said is more powerful, as it is difficult to do.

a cell of 9 plates remains inefficient if fed to 13.8 volts to 9 volts but works great (I mean if you have 3 neutral (-nnn + nnn-).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HHO-Gas-Fuel-Enhancer-Increase-MPG-Hydrogen...

the problem of KOH in the throttle body is solved with a single filter with a sponge,

I'd like to try a wet cell with one of two neutral electrodes:

another with four neutral:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/11-PLATES-3X5-316-STAINLESS-HYDROGEN-GENERA...

which could be better?

we know that the dry cell HHO produces lots, but if you need just a little wet cell helped with proper voltage for ccpwm can serve.

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