The easy way to build a efficient high volt cell.

1st we need to build a simple controller, remember  ac to dc adds voltage.

Remember house wiring is designed for a max amps normally 15 to 20 amps.

Check your breaker or fuse for the max also the receptacle, most are 15 amps.

AC volts is approx. 117 volts on most 120 circuits. When  rectifying ac to dc you gain volts 1.5 volts dc to 1 volt ac.

We want to start with a variac (this is a adjustable power transformer) this will allow us to get the best mmw.

We will need a bridge rectifier ( I like them to have built in over kill 1400 + volts 40 amps or more).

You will also need a big heat-sink a fan will also help keep it cool

I also like to put in a breaker 10 to 15 amps over kill is a must for safety.

I also like a meter for volts and amps for the output.

We need a power cord from the variac to this unit. Remember to get the right gage wire for the amp draw ( I like 10 to 12 gage any smaller is asking for trouble).

OK that's what we need for the controller  ( if you need help to wire this ether ask me or someone else).

 

2nd we need to build a good safe cell with a good mmw  (7. + mmw). We have a few things to think about, how many lpm we want and how to keep it cool. So we get clean hho with no steam or very little. We know that a 7 mmw is 1 lpm at 142 watts. We also know that we need 3 inches of plate per watt (remember we want a high mmw and a cool cell ). We don't want the cell to run hot, that makes steam  and  is no good.

We also know that we want 1.75 volts to 1.9 volts per gap. (again we want no heat).

So at 120 ac volts we need at least 65 plates, remember dc is higher ( I build 76 plate cells).

The easiest and best cell to date is a dry cell a very easy build and the highest mmw.

Now we need to know what are output is designed for. 3 inches per watt,  that means on a 6 by 6 inch plate exposed we have 36 inches or 12 watts.

Remember a plate has 2 sides so that will be 24 watts per plate. I said I like 76 plates so really in a dry cell that is 75 on a dry cell we loose 1 plate because it is on the outside. so 24*75 = 1800 watts or at max 12.67 lpm with a 7 mmw and no steam.

Because of this kind of power we need "need " "NEED"  to protect our self " THIS WILL KILL YOU"….

So we cover the outside plates with rubber and non-conductive plastic. SAFETY IS KEY.

OK that being said plates need to be at least 316L (the L stands for the carbon content) stainless steal 316 wont cut it.

I like nickel or coated plates they will double the watts per inch or more. Any cell that runs hot will make red mud (iron leaches out of the ss).

THIS IS NOT GOOD .... MUD MEANS INFERIOR SS OR HOT A GOOD CELL WILL NOT "WILL NOT" MAKE MUD....

Gap spacing the closer the gap the better it will conduct.... But less water in the cell. I like gaps smaller then 1/8 inch REMEMBER  WE WANT A HIGH MMW.

Gaskets

Rubber will work fine for koh.

If the cell is compressed I like at least 1 ton.

Super gaskets will be Teflon.

 

OK  NOW WE HAVE OUR CELL AND POWER SUPPLY.

We still have things to say. A cell acts like a leaky super capacitor (after a short time it will hold voltage around 2 volts).

When we run this thing it will gain voltage as it warms up "I've seen them over 200 volts dc".

That's why we have the variac we will be able to adjust the volts. Amps  is controlled by the amount of koh.(a bad cell will want to over heat and the amps will run away).

Builders will put current limiters to stop this. We will add koh for the desired amp draw when warm.

The last thing  I have to say here is remember the law Amps* Volts = Watts.

 

Electrolyte flow, builders can design this into the cell by gravity feed but using a pump to flow the electrolyte isn't bad but pumps use power and this will hurt your mmw.

 

                        THIS IS THE BASICS I'LL ADD MORE INFO I will be writing a E book.

 

                

            

 

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Wow this is all great in theory! Where is the pictures or videos of your work in action? we all know your a pro and the best at what you talk about doing, can we see it work? It's gauge wire by the way not gage.

 

I see in your mind you are using a variac, are you going to hire a midget to man that thing? Or is this unit being built just to prove that you can make hho from water? I think were past that and the public has accepted that electrolysis is possible.

 

It will take you a year to build something functional enough to be used by others. The learning curve is expensive and requires resources.

 

If you build a cell that uses  gaskets please remember that you will have that many potential leaks. and that cell will never be able to be in cold weather because when it freezes even a little bit it will pop all your gaskets out of place. Also remember gasket cells only have so long of a life because of there nature they make pockets for the sediment to build up and over time that becomes solid and conductive and ends up shorting the cell out. That tid bit there will save you a ton of time and money :-)

 

Again man, We all know that the gas can be made, it's not new. Now it's about building things that people can use. I know your a self proclaimed PRO and you think that folks should come to you to ask when they need help but I'm afraid your far from qualified to help anyone.

 

Writing an EBOOK??? Click bank will shut your account down due to the charge back rate your going to have! Don't write an ebook about something you know nothing about!

Tom addressed a few problems

Solids can be a problem, with gaskets leaking and freezing issues. These are all good questions.

Let's take these points one at a time.

Are solids a problem? Remember, I said we don't want red mud (solids) this is what tom is talking about, which ends up being carbon that has leached out of the plate, which contains hexavalent chromium, solids and impurities.

Are gaskets leaking a real issue? And is freezing a real problem?.

We will start with freezing. This is a barbaric thought, and there is no reason for it. I will offer the solutions to this here.

Will a car battery freeze?. A car battery is a acid and koh is a chemical base. Both won't freeze if the percentage of each is high enough. The problem with a high koh percentage is that it will raise your wattage. Will windshield washer fluid freeze? The ingredient in windshield fluid is methyl alcohol CH4O people in cold areas have been using this for years. I'm not saying to use windshield washer fluid there are impurities use methyl alcohol with your electrolyte.

Gaskets leaking was a real problem years ago with Dry-cells. In the past, experimenters wanted a new type of cell that wouldn't have power bleeding from plate edges, no thermal runaway and would be serviceable. This brought back the Dry-cell, and it's been around sense the 1800's. The experimenters experienced that over time the gaskets would leak. They found that if you compressed the cell to at least 1 ton while building, that problem went away. The higher the psi, often the better. The advantage of a Dry-cell is that it doesn't bleed power from the edges of the plates this gives you a higher mmw. Because of less bleeding it doesn't run as hot. This also fixed the thermal runaway problem. The cell was also serviceable.

Bath-cells have problems, the bleed power from the plate edges resulting in a lower mmw.

They get hot because of this factor. The bath-cell was not user friendly, as they would make mud (solids) and would “MELT DOWN”. Over the years they have improved on the design. Smack, a cell builder and a friend of mine had a good hybrid, but it was a very hard build.

Solids (red mud) is a real problem for people. First what is the cause of the mud? . Well there are a few reasons why we get solids first is the carbon content of the metal. I said to use 316L.

What does the L mean?

L-grades have 0.03% carbon maximum. L-grades are resistant to sensitization in short-term exposures or heat treatments. L-grade often have slightly lower (typically 5,000 psi less) minimum strengths than standard stainless steels. Most standard grades of stainless steel have 0.08% maximum carbon and are suitable for use in non-welded parts and equipment; in case of welded applications these parts are used for light-gauge applications

The second reason is heat. Heat will make the carbon leach out of the metal.

The third reason is a dirty build or builder. Finger prints ,oils and tools will add solids always clean your plates before building . Normally this will clean up on burn in (conditioning the cell)

The forth reason is heat. The best materials will leach carbon always. So we want to keep are cell running as cool as we can. This produces the best mmw.

I believe all this has been talked about in discussions on www.hhoinformation.com . Please read or ask someone. There is also a great book called “The electrolysis of water; processes and applications” by Viktor Engelhardt this book is a great read. I hope this helps answers more questions .



Where is your photo or video content to back your information? carbon or leached material is not the only thing that causes the sediment. That comes from the electrolyte (any kind any quality) it comes from the water and the minerals contained in it (any kind any quality) Remember when i build something it needs to last forever not just for an MMW test and then be retired to the junk pile.

 

If you write an E-Book it will be a disaster.

 

Freezing temperatures below -20º F are a challenge.  The facts are quite different than one might think though.  NaOH at 20% goes down much lower than -20º F before it becomes solid and KOH even lower at 28%.   True NaOH does turn to slush below -20º F but  that does no harm any thing except requiring a longer warmup period and poor production to begin with if you rush it.  Extreme winter weather is going to result in lower gains when using HHO.  You naturally get worse mileage in extreme conditions.  That is the cost of living in the frozen north.  Everything changes in the frozen north during about 4 months of the year and longer in some areas.  Gaskets do not pop out with slush and if it does freeze solid I rather a gasket pop out than something else brake.  In the North where the weather is extreme there are trade offs.  One is location of the reactor.  You are trying to keep it warm there not cool.  Thermal switches are used to allow the engine to warm up before the reactor comes on.  In the right location it is about the same time your heater has warmed up the car.  We use remote starters and always wait tell things warm up before getting into a vehicle that is not parked in a heated garage.   Safety is also an issue.  If it does freeze and brake,  where does the electrolyte end up.  This has to all be thought through when installing in the frozen north.  Having many test units in North Dakota and Canada I am well aware of the winter conditions.  Minus 60º F is not uncommon.  It can be very brutal.  Mileage goes down, the heating bills go up along with fresh vegetables.  LOL You are forced to use a poorer quality of diesel and the list goes on and on.  KOH has a lower freezing point at its maximum strength but is not my choice.  It seems to migrate out a lot more to the bubbler than NaOH so I just do not use it along with other problems.  I do have a solution for bubblers and the reservoirs. That is a different discussion though.

Tom, what happens if one of your units freezes?  Where is the give point? Something has to give if it freezes solid.  I sure like the looks of your units.  Good lines and professionally put together.  Your Punch 5.0 slim line is a real looker.      

Thank you Carter and Tom,

Two new points have come up: electrolytes and durability.

Let's start with electrolytes: NaOH compared to KOH. What is the advantages? What are the disadvantages?. How can we make a cell last at least cost?

We will start with the last question first.

How can we make a cell last with the least amount of cost? We will compare the two cells: A) Dry-cells to B) Bath-cells.

Generally a Bath-cell has plates that cannot be replaced, cannot be cleaned easy and normally will have to be completely replaced after a catastrophic problem.

Dry-cells are just plates and gaskets. What will cause these types of problems?

The problem genuinely is caused by primarily two issues.

The First enemy to cells is heat. Probably the biggest problem it causes is mud (solids) and warping of the plates. Plates warp very easy. All a person has to do is drop it and or get it hot. Metal expands and changes molecularly when it is heated and cooled over and over again. In Bath-cells, we normally can't change that plate. But in a dry-cell we can find it and replace it when needed. So if a plate cost 1 dollar in a Dry-cell it costs 1 dollar plus your time.

If it is a bath-cells you have to buy the contents and build the whole cell over.

What about mud(solids)? In a Dry-cell we can clean it at no cost. What about a Bath-cells? We normally can't get between the plates to clean unless you disassemble the entire thing, which can be very time consuming. So we need to buy new gaskets, other parts and end up creating a new one.

A great question to ask if buying a cell “can I take it apart to clean it?” Most often the manufacturers will tell you “are cells never to be cleaned”. This should make you stop right there from buying it.

Which cell performs coolest? The answer to this is easy, a Dry-cell usually runs cooler . The Dry-cell will always last longer if built for the lpm (liter per minute) and not pushed over its limits.

Electrolytes is another great topic. When we split water, we actually split the bond of the electrolyte. KOH loves water. We split the koh +hho the k goes back into the hho and the second h is released giving us a output of hho. Because of the ionic bond, the K does not want to leave the water, unless we steam it out. This means after we run the water through it all, we need it to add water.

NaOH is a different story. It hates water. The Na under electrolysis does not absorb back into the water. After a short time you will have to add more electrolyte. There is also a poisonous gas that is made with the output gas. I'm sure hhoinformation has a chemist here to clarify this. The volume of output is also different between the two. KOH will give you 10% better output. I believe this is because the NaOH gets weaker and weaker.

I again hope this will help everyone. Please keep posting your questions I will post the answers if I know it, or I will ask some of my professional friends for their input.

Don you need to read what you wrote again.  I can only talk form experience not as a chemists which I am far from. LOL  I guess we will just have to disagree here.  I will try and explain my position using your words.  You said,  "KOH does not want to leave water."  Even a reactor running at 77º F will have lots of moisture in it.  Cold fog if you want to call it something.  Hot running reactors have more.  In that moisture is KOH and is just what you said it does not want to leave water.  KOH bonds the to moisture(water molecule) at least that is my understanding.  

 

NaOH "hates water the Na under electrolysis does not obsorb back into water."  It remains in the reactor or reservoir and very little in an efficient reactor/system makes it into the bubbler.  Remember it hates water so does not move as easily in the moisture in the HHO.  If you can make a reactor that has NO moisture in the gas I will have to see it.  If you use a mass spectrometer you will be able to see the moisture. You can not avoid it.  

Here is what you will find or at least close to it in the graph below from a Mas Spectrometer.  I guess where we disagree is if there is moisture or not in an efficient reactor.  I say and science says there is.   This is why more KOH makes it into the bubbler and gets thrown out and less NaOH .   I have tested this and the bubble becomes much more alkaline over the same run time with KOH than with NaOH.  You can do the experiment and report your findings. 



Electrolytes is another great topic. When we split water, we actually split the bond of the electrolyte. KOH loves water. We split the koh +hho the k goes back into the hho and the second h is released giving us a output of hho. Because of the ionic bond, the K does not want to leave the water, unless we steam it out. This means after we run the water through it all, we need it to add water.

NaOH is a different story. It hates water. The Na under electrolysis does not absorb back into the water. After a short time you will have to add more electrolyte. There is also a poisonous gas that is made with the output gas. I'm sure hhoinformation has a chemist here to clarify this. The volume of output is also different between the two. KOH will give you 10% better output. I believe this is because the NaOH gets weaker and weaker.

Why not build Stan Meyer's 8xA, it uses tap water and voltage performs work in the form of a dynamic force on the water. You would be half way there with the variac set up your talking about 

Carter said:

Don you need to read what you wrote again.  I can only talk form experience not as a chemists which I am far from. LOL  I guess we will just have to disagree here.  I will try and explain my position using your words.  You said,  "KOH does not want to leave water."  Even a reactor running at 77º F will have lots of moisture in it.  Cold fog if you want to call it something.  Hot running reactors have more.  In that moisture is KOH and is just what you said it does not want to leave water.  KOH bonds the to moisture(water molecule) at least that is my understanding.  

 

NaOH "hates water the Na under electrolysis does not obsorb back into water."  It remains in the reactor or reservoir and very little in an efficient reactor/system makes it into the bubbler.  Remember it hates water so does not move as easily in the moisture in the HHO.  If you can make a reactor that has NO moisture in the gas I will have to see it.  If you use a mass spectrometer you will be able to see the moisture. You can not avoid it.  

Here is what you will find or at least close to it in the graph below from a Mas Spectrometer.  I guess where we disagree is if there is moisture or not in an efficient reactor.  I say and science says there is.   This is why more KOH makes it into the bubbler and gets thrown out and less NaOH .   I have tested this and the bubble becomes much more alkaline over the same run time with KOH than with NaOH.  You can do the experiment and report your findings. 



Electrolytes is another great topic. When we split water, we actually split the bond of the electrolyte. KOH loves water. We split the koh +hho the k goes back into the hho and the second h is released giving us a output of hho. Because of the ionic bond, the K does not want to leave the water, unless we steam it out. This means after we run the water through it all, we need it to add water.

NaOH is a different story. It hates water. The Na under electrolysis does not absorb back into the water. After a short time you will have to add more electrolyte. There is also a poisonous gas that is made with the output gas. I'm sure hhoinformation has a chemist here to clarify this. The volume of output is also different between the two. KOH will give you 10% better output. I believe this is because the NaOH gets weaker and weaker.

Carter states a point with some data. I'm in the process on finding more data also to show my point. I don't want anyone to do anything just because "I said so". This could take a few days because I'm very busy. Also sorry about pics I'm under a NDA and it takes time to clear things. I hope everyone understands. I will post more in the next few days. If there is any more things we would like talk about Please post to this discussion.

I will add one more comment here and that is except in winter, I have been able to increase efficiency by decreasing electrolyte concentration.   Even though the volume goes down the way most measure, the efficiency goes up.  Amps per liter is less.  Of course there is a limit but in all reactors there is an optimum efficiency level that can be set by electrolyte concentration and flow and it is not at full strength, in my testing anyway.  Maybe some of you scientists/chemists can explain this.  If not try it and report.  

So Carter I think you are saying that during winter the cell works better amps/litre with less electrolyte? I would imaging that the amps would drop with less electrolyte by default so maybe there is a sweet spot that you are getting closer to be removing a little.  If I am not understanding you please clarify this interests me.

No, that is not what I meant.  In winter to help solve the freezing problem is the only time I run full strength and use a PWM.  The rest of the time I use a much weaker electrolyte where the reactor works at its optimum point.  My point was that weaker electrolyte has more efficiency than stronger electrolyte which is against most peoples thinking because lower resistance (stronger electrolyte) should give better efficiency.  That is not the case in an efficient reactor that is built for a specific liter per minute volume.  None of this has to do with winter other than I am forced to run full strength to combat -40º F or colder.  In fact any reactor as the electrolyte concentration goes down there is a point where MMW's go up or amps/liter go down.  I am working on a some ideas that will require a PWM all the time but it not tested yet so nothing to discuss.

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