HODINFO is a collaborative think tank/ open science initiative. We are an International group comprised of inventors, scientist, mechanics, tinkerers, fabricators, and out of the box thinkers. Our mission is to find innovative solutions to the problems that primarily limit the production and delivery of H2. As the world starts using hydrogen it becomes clear that immense infrastructure initiatives will be required to make it happen. If adequate solutions can be found to support Hydrogen-On-Demand (HOD) systems then the world can remove great and costly limitations on future applications. The future is not just Hydrogen, it's Hydrogen-on-Demand.

More info can be found on the Ace cell here.

http://hodinfo.com/forum/topics/catalytic-carbon-pr11-press-release...

If you are doing Ace cell research please post here.

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Like so...

A quick look at it working with two diodes connected to each of the output wires and Gnd.

 

This is how the three modules look before mounting on a base board:

Output connections:

  

And that is just about all from me for now folks.

Happy constructing.

Martin

Working with Howard's ACE Cell technology.

Multi-Plate ACE Cell.

Alan Smith and I have experimented with Howard's ACE2 cell arrangement and I thought I'd write up some of our observations.

Howard's original design was centred on a coaxial arrangement of soft cast iron pieces. However that is not the only arrangement that has been experimented with nor is cast iron the only material.

The electrodes need to oxidise (rust) in order to sequester the O2 from the electrolysis reaction and so need to be made from a grade of iron or steel that does not resist oxidisation. There are several grades of cast iron as there are steel.

Soft  cast iron is easy to handle (there are several grades) and is often referred to as malleable iron. They are fairly easy to work with and will withstand a bit of a shock. The other grades of cast iron are harder to work with but tougher. Cast iron is an ideal material because its bare surface has enormous surface area. However cast iron is getting difficult to find in some parts of the country and so low carbon rolled steel plate became an obvious candidate for use.

Mild steel plate can be obtained as bright (often called cold rolled) mild steel which is clean of oxide or hot rolled which has less spring but has a black oxide coating that would need to be removed.

You really don't want to use galvanised steel because the galvanised zinc coating is there for a reason... to stop it oxidising and removing the zinc by either mechanical or chemical means can be both difficult and may present health risks. It is also just plain simpler to use uncoated mild steel sheet in the first instance anyway.

Alan Smith and I have made a couple of ACE2 cell experimental set-ups using multiple flat sheet electrodes punched (or sheared) from bright rolled mild steel stock.

 

A rectangular arrangement provides for the largest possible surface area per cubic volume of a container. With this technology... surface area is everything.

Spacing of each plate was around 3mm with each plate drilled at the corners and nylon thread-stock and nylon washers both providing the means of assembly and spacing.

We tried a number of arrangements. Connecting just the outer electrodes and thus employing neutral plates to drop the overall current being drawn for a given voltage and also tried connecting a number of plates in parallel in order to reduce the required voltage while increasing the overall current.

Both arrangements proved successful.

Rectangular plates are obviously not the only way to arrange the electrodes. One could just as easily use a multi coaxial arrangement:

While Howard's design produces good H2  with water (we tried tap water) it's performance can be enhanced with the inclusion of a little electrolyte. Because of the large area we employed with our experiments and probably because of the ions already present in the household tap water very little electrolyte was required. 

Performance can be enhanced with the inclusion of a little of Howard's patented Catalytic Carbon (CC). The CC does what it should do and enhances the water splitting capability of the cell.

However... 

We found that it is entirely possible to over drive the cell.

We think this has a lot to do with the time constants of corrosion (oxidisation). Iron / steel is not the fastest of reactive metals and so by increasing the overall current while including CC in an attempt to extract greater flow we found that we exceeded the rate at which our iron plates could oxidise which resulted in O2 being given off.

The resulting gas is of course Browns Gas or HHO. Not good.

Of course there are other variables to take into account like pH, temperature, circulation flow etc... but the fact still remains; overdrive the plates by exceeding that rate at which the Fe can corrode and sequester the O2 and O2 gas has to be given off.

Other things to note and in particular is the finish of the plates. A rough surface presents a greater surface area... good because surface area is so important. But poorly finished plates, like sharp edges around the perimeter,  sharp corners or around the holes will cause a higher charge pressure at those points and so increase the likelihood of overdrive at those areas and so produce O2.

We probably need to do a bit more work and take more measurements concerning the pH of the water, the oxidation rate, H2 flow, temperature, plate spacing and of course purity before we could lay down a concrete table of parameters to share.

Increasing the surface area of the cell electrodes and under driving them may be preferable to the potential problem of over driving a cell and producing O2.

Anyway... we hope this prompts some further discussion and research.

Hi Martin, that's great, very helpful...what is the advantage of 3mm spacing over a wider or variable spacing?  I've found with cast iron that the amperage draw was regulated by temperature and electrode weight (400+/- grams seems to get me to catalytic temps without pulling relay melting amperage).   Have you (or anyone else) tried dissimiliar materials for example stainless electrodes and multiple neutrals of mild steel?  Thanks, Marc

Hi Marc,

Varying the spacing will have an impact on current / charge. Howard also talks a lot about the capacitive effect.  I'm hoping that Howard might step in here.

Spacing at this time was arbitrary... more research is required around this. We just happened to have 3mm nylon washers to hand. Spacing and charge density will be a serious point of discussion later I expect.

Temperature will have an influence especially if you are including CC and electrolytes.

When you speak of electrode weight... are you referring to available surface area. Surface area is key.

Definitely not tried stainless or any other metal other than iron based (including steel) really.

Martin

marc tamiso said:

Hi Martin, that's great, very helpful...what is the advantage of 3mm spacing over a wider or variable spacing?  I've found with cast iron that the amperage draw was regulated by temperature and electrode weight (400+/- grams seems to get me to catalytic temps without pulling relay melting amperage).   Have you (or anyone else) tried dissimiliar materials for example stainless electrodes and multiple neutrals of mild steel?  Thanks, Marc

Hello gentlemen. I don't mean to intrude; so much as to offer my hard earned advice. The most often mistake I made is allowing too much space between electrodes which allows too much H2O in the system with respect to the Fe to H2O aspect of the ACE Cell chemistry formula itself. Over hydration if you will recall is one sure way to either impede the CCHoD process from initiating or to intentionally stall the process as an emergency shut down procedure. Entering cold water into the cell will also impede the process and must be avoided. Preheating the water before adding it to the cell is highly recommended.

The other thing that just came to mind Marc is that for one half of the cycle, if you are considering using stainless anywhere... because it does not readily oxidise it will be a source of O2 gas.

Martin Moore said:

Hi Marc,

Varying the spacing will have an impact on current / charge. Howard also talks a lot about the capacitive effect.  I'm hoping that Howard might step in here.

Spacing at this time was arbitrary... more research is required around this. We just happened to have 3mm nylon washers to hand. Spacing and charge density will be a serious point of discussion later I expect.

Temperature will have an influence especially if you are including CC and electrolytes.

When you speak of electrode weight... are you referring to available surface area. Surface area is key.

Definitely not tried stainless or any other metal other than iron based (including steel) really.

Martin

marc tamiso said:

Hi Martin, that's great, very helpful...what is the advantage of 3mm spacing over a wider or variable spacing?  I've found with cast iron that the amperage draw was regulated by temperature and electrode weight (400+/- grams seems to get me to catalytic temps without pulling relay melting amperage).   Have you (or anyone else) tried dissimiliar materials for example stainless electrodes and multiple neutrals of mild steel?  Thanks, Marc

@marc.

There is one possible factor which can intrude if the electrode spacing is under 3mm (1/8in) or so. If the cell is left standing for some time whiskering between plates and also the trapping of clots of iron hydroxide can mean you get increased current draw at start-up and reduced H output.  This situation may also lead to oxygen contamination as Martin mentioed above, since once again parts some plates will be carrying excessive currents. Generally speaking the only way to eliminate the Oxy problem is to keep the interplate voltage at around 1.5V - below the breakdown voltage of conventional water electrolysis. For example, if you have 20 'floating' (not directly wired) intermediate plates  in a system you should ensure the voltage applied never  exceeds 20x1.5V = 30V.

I should point out that this is based on theory, not direct observation - but in this instance the electrochemical theory is so well known that, even if you don't like it, it is still true.

Actually found a picture of the plate-stack we we used. Only the outer pair are live, the inner ones are all 'floating'

Attachments:

Hi Allen, thanks, that's quite the generator.  Do you find hot spots on the electrodes or plates? I've found with hho cells the wider spacing increases voltage, but also circulation.  So, mild steel?  Please share wattage and gas output.  I'm currently ganging up quartered pieces of salvage cast at about 6mm spacing, 3 neutrals at most.  But lots of mild steel salvage to be had...

Alan Smith said:

Actually found a picture of the plate-stack we we used. Only the outer pair are live, the inner ones are all 'floating'

Hi Jesse, thanks for your input- how much space is too much?   temperature is a huge factor, how are you dealing with insulating and protecting your electrolyte and water supply?  7 degrees below zero again last night, hope to make a winter grade unit before winter's end...

Jessee McBroom said:

Hello gentlemen. I don't mean to intrude; so much as to offer my hard earned advice. The most often mistake I made is allowing too much space between electrodes which allows too much H2O in the system with respect to the Fe to H2O aspect of the ACE Cell chemistry formula itself. Over hydration if you will recall is one sure way to either impede the CCHoD process from initiating or to intentionally stall the process as an emergency shut down procedure. Entering cold water into the cell will also impede the process and must be avoided. Preheating the water before adding it to the cell is highly recommended.

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