Since late August, I've been testing a low neutral plate cell. I started with +NN-NN+ using only 0.2g NaOH per liter of water. Observed good temp stability, good current stability, but brown sludge formed too soon. This is what's in my truck right now, and I'm taking it down despite the dramatic mileage improvements in combination with H2O.

Now moving up to three neutral plates +NNN-NNN+. I noticed better resistance to sludge forming, but it happens after 18 hours of continuous run. This is still a low caustic cell, using 0.8g NaOH per liter of water to draw 5.5 amperes. Stable temp and current draw over time. I will post pictures and results next week.

Right now, my main problem is sourcing the right SS material. I'm using T-304SS made in China, and that was the best available here. I've found a T-316, still made in china, but it may or may not do better. Chinese made SS plates seem to suffer from inconsistent metallurgical composition, so my test results are not reliable. But I'm going ahead anyway.

If anybody wants to try this out, it would be better for the project so that we can compare notes.

Views: 64

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Here's the picture of the brick, using 4 X 4 SS plates.


Imagine how safe the system would be if we only use 0.08% NaOH, or maybe 0.1% or 0.3%.
Thanks Gabet. I've bookmarked the site.

The 22 ga. 316 SS here sells for about $120.00 for a whole sheet measuring 4' X 8'. This comes from a reputable trader, hopefully. The plate arrives late next week or week after next.

In the meantime performance and corrosion tests continue for the 304SS brick. If this succeeds, we won't need any more moisture traps, and the resultant steam could be used to help power the engine.
I can just imagine the shipping costs on that sheet! Oversize goes into extra and I don't even think UPS will deliver that large.
No problem here. The sheet rides on with other shipments in one container, so the quoted price is ex-store, including taxes, shipping, everything.

If this succeeds, I shall have made a system that costs $35.00 on materials! This includes the cells, the container, and the water vaporizer. Man, this is cheap.

Gary said:
I can just imagine the shipping costs on that sheet! Oversize goes into extra and I don't even think UPS will deliver that large.
Tests were done Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning. Please see attachment. The charts are self-explanatory. Please note temperature and current behavior over time. In a tropical country, this kind of temp stability looks good.

I noticed brown layer on the negative side of the plates. They could be removed when wet, but on drying, they stick pretty good. I would assume that a real 304 SS won't show that stuff in such a short time. Probably then a 316 SS would do better.

More observations:
1. 6 X 6 plates don't respond much to low concentrations of NaOH. The smaller plates do, thus the choice of 4 X 4 plates. 6 X 6 pates have higher total watts capacity, and are more efficient at those levels. 4 X 4 plates are probably meant for low current draw.
2. As Christer noted, the current decreases over time, especially on the subsequent operation of the cell. I wonder why.
3. The electrolyte doesn't have the soapy feel of the usual solutions, doesn't smart when you smell the vapors.
Attachments:
In my testing I have found that voltage is mostly responsible for the mud. I electro-polish my tubes and run 3 or less volts per tube. I don't get mud. My cells run less than 90 degrees F constantly and amps do not fluctuate much. If I push the cells past the 15 amp max I run into flow issues. Using less than 1/2 LPM for the engine allows for a small design.

It looks like your smaller cell is about the same as my cell in surface area and amp range. I would expect your cell to make about 1 lpm at 15 amps. I did not see any LPM readings on your chart. Nice chart BTW, lol.

The decrease in amperage over time is most likely due to the formation of iron oxide on the plates. I like the idea of very little koh. I do not like to use the stuff, but how do you keep a cell from freezing without it?

As far as making the water more conductive try ionizing it for a day prior to using it. I have not done those tests yet on ionizing the water, but expect to have some info on that this week. Right now I am ionizing the incoming air instead. I still have not figured out a good method for negative ionization of the water, but that would be ideal.
You're probably right with the observation on corrosion being directly related to voltage per gap. The same SS material on 5 neutral plates doesn't corrode over long periods. I also made a 4.5 X 4.5 cell with only 2 neutral plates, and had a lot of brown gunk after 300 miles or so.

I'm still trying to find out if at low current draws, the 3 neutral plate configuration with REAL 316SS can keep a clear electrolyte for a decent length of time. I will get my 316 SS in a few days and see what happens.

Re the freezing problem: We don't have that here in the Philippines, especially in Cebu, a land of endless summers.

BTW, how do you ionize water?
I got my 316 SS about 2 days ago. Still busy testing the brick. It's now in my truck. Will post LPM graph soon.

Now using clear PU hose to observe presence of vapor in the line, and yes, there is. I am hesitant to release other initial observations, especially those based on driving "feel", because they would mean nothing if not backed up by numerical data. So maybe next week something definite will come up.

I am not too optimistic about corrosion resistance, though, because of the voltage per gap of over 3.4 VDC. The 10 hour test showed much less electrolyte discoloration, but it's still there. How long it lasts without forming gunk remains to be seen.

.. and thanks to ehnrico, the KML coil is connected to ground, hopefully in the right orientation.
the mud you are referring to is very common we have fiound that distilled water and extreme care that nothing metal used to put your electrolyte in the unit the fluid will stay clear and clean up to 10,000 miles provided you have hdpe fittings,and good quality hoses with no contamination in the fittings or hoses ..otherwise you get a false reading on the unit and unit failure will happen within hrs as the mud devolpes .we have found flow design and proper usage of koh will give excellent results on 316 l good luck
www.hhoboostnow.com

skysabre said:
I got my 316 SS about 2 days ago. Still busy testing the brick. It's now in my truck. Will post LPM graph soon.

Now using clear PU hose to observe presence of vapor in the line, and yes, there is. I am hesitant to release other initial observations, especially those based on driving "feel", because they would mean nothing if not backed up by numerical data. So maybe next week something definite will come up.

I am not too optimistic about corrosion resistance, though, because of the voltage per gap of over 3.4 VDC. The 10 hour test showed much less electrolyte discoloration, but it's still there. How long it lasts without forming gunk remains to be seen.

.. and thanks to ehnrico, the KML coil is connected to ground, hopefully in the right orientation.
Thanks for all the info guys! But it looks like I may cancel this 3 neutral plate experiment and move up a bit to 4 neutral plates. I'm making a new brick now and ready to replace the first one. For a 4 neutral plate brick (+NNNN-NNNN+), one would need 2 g NaOH per L of water to draw 3+ A, which is what my truck seems to like. Maybe I will go up to 4g or 5g later and see what happens. Most other vehicles I worked on responded well to 5A.

0.2% to 0.5% NaOH would still be low caustic, and much less harmful to the engine and the environment. If this configuration succeeds, then maybe third world countries can afford to build a lot of HHO units too. I'm looking forward to developing a system that costs $50.00 to $75.00 including installation. That means low out-of-pocket cost, and fast ROI.

I want this clear: I have no business agenda here. Selling HHO won't earn me enough. I just want the most number of people to benefit from this technology.
Now running 2 bricks in parallel. One is a 316 SS configured 4N2, and the other is a 304SS also 4N2. All plates sized at 4"X4". Used lab grade distilled water, courtesy of a local lab.

Observations:
1. One tsp liquid lye (approx <2 g NaOH) per liter water produces 3.5A. 2 tsp produces 7A.
2. Temp stability attained in 6 hrs, at 41 deg C or 106 deg F.
3. Current stability in 3 hrs.+ while drawing 7A
4. So far, after 20+ hrs. continuous run, very little electrolyte discoloration with both types of SS.

Sorry, no LPM measurements yet because I'm using open containers.

This should be run for 5 days straight, or longer. The result will be one of the criteria in the selection of the most cost-effective type of SS for this 4N2 configuration.

Reply to Discussion

RSS

*** Translate HODINFO ***

Latest Activity

Meryn Mckenzie is now a member of HODINFO
yesterday
Jim Mitchell commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronysis a Spectacular new Vernacular page 2'
Sep 14
gabet123 replied to gabet123's discussion 'Spammer Alert'
Sep 14
Jeremy Dukes commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronysis a Spectacular new Vernacular page 2'
Sep 13
Jeremy Dukes favorited Jim Mitchell's blog post Electronysis a Spectacular new Vernacular page 2
Sep 10
Jeremy Dukes favorited Jim Mitchell's blog post Electronysis a Spectacular new Vernacular page 2
Sep 10
Jim Mitchell commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronysis a Spectacular new Vernacular page 2'
Sep 10
Jeremy Dukes commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronysis a Spectacular new Vernacular page 2'
Sep 9
Jim Mitchell posted a blog post
Sep 9
Jeremy Dukes commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronyisis A Spectacular New Vernacular.'
Sep 7
Jaco Bezuidenhout commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronyisis A Spectacular New Vernacular.'
Sep 7
Jim Mitchell commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronyisis A Spectacular New Vernacular.'
Sep 6
Jim Mitchell commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronyisis A Spectacular New Vernacular.'
Sep 6
Jim Mitchell commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronyisis A Spectacular New Vernacular.'
Sep 6
Jaco Bezuidenhout commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronyisis A Spectacular New Vernacular.'
Sep 6
Jeremy Dukes commented on Jim Mitchell's blog post 'Electronyisis A Spectacular New Vernacular.'
Sep 5

© 2018   Created by gabet123.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Privacy Policy  |  Terms of Service

Live Chat