I am just wondering if any colleagues have experimented with using ultrasonic energy on their cell constructions.

I have been experimenting with a small system and it seems to excite the plates / electrolysis process. I find this very interesting because it seems to me that it may be a away of adding kinetic energy to the process of splitting water.

I understand that water molecules have their own frequency and that this is very high indeed. I also know that there are commercial companies hitting water with an awful lot of ultrasonic energy in order to try to rip water molecules apart.

How about using ultrasonics to assist the process of electrolysis in order to reduce the energy required to achieve a reasonable HHO production.

I'm currently looking at four 50watt 40khz ultrasonic transducers to try with my wet cell. I can't see why they could not be used with a dry cell apart from the physical problems but they just need a bit of thought.

Has anyone else tried this?

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Pic show water fog mist is equal to wavelength of fog droplet. www.scaleofuniverse.com

I have used distilled water with the same effects. I won't dismiss the minerals, but there is more then minerals going on hear. Particle collision is helping free electrons to outer ring so that they may be consumed in the electron extraction circuit. In this pic you will notice the water mist droplet to be the same size as the wavelength as the infrared spectrum. So I imagine a very high pulse rep along with high intensity bombardment of the water fog with have some excellent outcomes with assisting in the destabilization of the water molecule. 

I have been interested in this for a number of years.  With lots but not exhaustive research I have not discovered anyone who has been able to truly increase the amount of gas per amp but have found by testing that they were only increasing the amount of moisture in the gas.  This by no means is proof that it is impossible.  It just means there is no evidence that I have seen and tested that has.  I keep testing and looking but think we might be working on this at the wrong point.  By this I mean trying to create more gas per amp in the reactor with Ultrasonics.  I have changed my testing to look at something totally different and you could say the opposite.  LOL  I would still be very interested with any new or additional developments in the use of Ultrasonics to enhance electrolysis but it must increases actual gas and not moisture.   

I have played with ultrasonics and I agree with Carter. I also haven't seen any better results with it. That being said my friend scarecrow would say something like just because I haven't had any success prove me wrong. But I will tell you that a high magnetic field will help with the ultrasonics. But a high induced magnetic field in the the cell seams to give you the same results by itself.

Our R&D shows the same results that carter and don have commented on. We have gone a bit deeper into the frequency issue. Hydrogen bonds are forming at a rate (freq) around 200 Femtoseconds (this is in the quadrillianth range) Extremly high. We are working in those frequency ranges to see what will happen. Tempurature also plays a very big role in your frequency research so dont ignore how hot or cold your water is. Two final things, pure H2O with no ions in it has a resistance of 182 Kohms at 25 degrees C, this lowers as salt or KOH is added. Also as water turns to ice the protons become the charge carriers instead of the electrons. We are focusing on the weaker hydrogen bond of the molecule instead of the overall covalent bonding looking for any answers at all. These are just a few things that were important to us, they may not be relavent to what you are working on. All of the frequency's around and just above the am band dont seem to do much for us, however anything you find would be very interesting. Good luck.

Thanks for the replies folks (Todd, Carter, Don & hHOFEe). This is very interesting stuff.  I'm aware of some of the science but some has passed me by. In terms of frequency of vibration - I'm aware that we are talking about very high frequencies and of course energy. The diagram and comments from Todd Miller (above) reminded me of one of my many hobbies and interests - Amateur Radio - how about putting ultrasonics aside and look to using RF (radio frequency) energy instead. I've made and operated transmitters from 1 MHz through to the microwave region before (many years ago) and many of us have the basic magnetron transmitting equipment in our homes in the form of Microwave Ovens.

I know what RF energy can do to molecules (I have had enough RF burns to prove the point).

Might this be an area worthy of some thought.  It's really not difficult to make an semi decent power amp at almost any desired frequency.

I hope this tickles some thoughts.

Martin

Hello to Everybody,

I'm not sure if I'm explaining the ultrasonics in the way that they need to be explained. I lined up some of Stanleys description right out of the WFC Dealer Manual with some information from a place specializing in ultrasonics. Here are the two pieces I put together that describes the same part in which I believe is a fogger.

Directly copied from Stan Meyer WFC Brief

Particle Oscillation As An Energy Generator
All energy in our physical universe (The third dimension) comes from a singular source ... the atom.
There are four basic forces that make up and effect the atomic structure: electrical force, electromagnetic force,
weak and strong nuclear forces, and gravity. By either attenuating either one or more of these atomic forces,
energy can be release from the atom to perform work in a variety of ways: such as, emitting photon,
electromagnetic, or even radiant heat energy; Exposing the water molecule atom (s) to an external electrical
attraction force (SS '/RR') separately or combining the external electrical attraction force with an external
electrical repelling force (SS'-TT'/RR'-WW') can cause the bipolar electrical charged water molecule atom (s)
to release thermal heat energy when physical impact (physical force) is achieved as a result of particle (s)
colliding together under electrical stress which becomes and is the physical mover ... causing electron bounce
to oscillate the energy aperture of each atom of the water molecule.
Voltage Flexing Process
Particle oscillation as a "Energy Generator" by way of "physical impact" caused by a
singular unipolar voltage pulse wave-form alternately polarity triggered is yet another method
beyond the prior art to flex the water molecule to release thermal energy (Kinetic Energy) from
the water molecule atom (s) without the need of gas combustion brought about by gas separation
from water, as so illustrated in (1050) of Figure (11-5).

This continued and repeated oscillation of the bipolar water molecule (1004/1006) in
opposite direction of linear travel (back and forth motion) produces kinetic energy (165) when the
moving and deflected bipolar water molecule (1004/1006) or any other bipolar molecule of water
interlocking with ever changing electrical attraction forces (S-S' /R-R') collides with neighboring
water molecules present in the same water bath (68).

Not only does the alternate first gated voltage pulse (B+/O - B-/O) and then the second
gated voltage pulse (OIB+ - OIB-) oscillates the bipolar water molecule (s) back and forth in rapid
succession to produce heated water at a predetermined temperature level on demand; but, also,
deflects the oscillating bipolar water molecule in an upward direction since the reforming voltage
pulse waves are always in a state of progressive movement of linear displacement ... performing
the same function as a water pump ... a water pump, however, not having any mechanical moving
parts to wear out.


The ionized atoms along with free floating negative charged electrons are, now, deflected (pulsing electrical voltage fields of opposite polarity) through the Electrical Polarization Process ...imparting or superimposing a second physical-force (particle-impact) unto the electrically charged water bath. Oscillation (back and forth movement) of electrically charged particles by way of voltage deflection is hereinafter called "Resonant Action", as illustrated in Figure (1-10). Attenuating and adjusting the "pulse-voltage-amplitude" with respect to the "pulse voltage frequency", now, produces hydrogen gas on demand while restricting amp flow.
Stanley A. Meyer

Sonaer Inc. 145 Rome Street Farmingdale, New York 11735
Ultrasonic - Atomizer Nozzles, Nebulizers, Processors, Generators
20kHz to 2.4MHz
http://www.sonozap.com/home_page.htm

Ultrasonic power supply (generator) converts DC voltage to high
frequency 25 kHz (25,000 cylces per second) electrical energy. This electrical energy is
transmitted to the transducer within the handpiece, where it is changed to mechanical
vibrations. The vibrations from the transducer are intensified by the probe (horn),
creating pressure waves in the liquid. This action forms millions of microscopic bubbles
(cavities) which expand during the negative pressure excursion, and implode violently
during the positive excursion. It is this phenomenon, referred to as cavitation, which
produces the powerful shearing action at the probe tip, and causes the molecules in the
liquid to become intensely agitated.

FREQUENCY AND AMPLITUDE
The radiating-wave frequencies most commonly used in ultrasonic cleaning, 18-120 kHz,
lie just above the audible frequency range. In any sonic system,the harmonics of the
fundamental frequency, together with vibrations originating at the container walls and
liquid surface, produce audible sound. Thus, an operating system that is fundamentally
ultrasonic will nonetheless by audible, and low frequency (20-kHz) systems will
generally be noisier than higher-frequency (40-kHz) systems.
Moreover, ultrasonic intensity is an integral function of the frequency and amplitude of a
radiating wave; therefore, a 20-kHz radiating wave will be approximately twice the
intensity of a 40-kHz wave for any given average power output, and consequently the
cavitation intensity resulting from a 20-kHz wave will be proportionately greater than that
resulting from a 40-kHz wave.
The cavitation phenomenon will, of course, occur less frequently at 20 kHz, but this is
not thought to have a significant bearing on effectiveness. However, the longer
wavelengths of low-frequency ultrasonic systems result in substantially different
standing-wave patters throughout the liquid medium.

After understanding ultrasonics you want to check out my posting on unipolar particle charger. There is  more info there heading towards Stanleys Resonant Gas Cavity and electron extraction. Once ultrasonics shakes up the water it needs to be destabilized by consuming 4 oxygen electrons and 1 hydrogen. Martin you could probably help me out alot here if  you have some free time to spare.

http://hhoinformation.com/video/cold-fog-gen-with-water-fuel-cell-t...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YkY8f07IonE

Hi Todd,

Thanks for a more complete explanation. I note though that the term "ultrasonic" seems to be used around the 25kHz to 40 kHz region. Ultrasonics of course continue right up into the mHz range as well - just look to the devices used in the field of medical imaging using ultrasonics. So before looking to RF there is still a long way to go in terms of physical movement using ultrasonics.

I was interested by one area - in terms of disrupting the water molecule further once it is at its smallest physical unit.  Perhaps the higher ultrasonic frequencies might help here.

I think it might be interesting to look at ultrasonic in a different way. Not for its ability to cause micro bubbles for cleaning but for excitation - to add kinetic energy.

Which is why I was thinking of microwave energy - seems an interesting avenue for investigation.

I'd be happy to exchange some ideas with you if you like but at the moment I'm actively engaged in three substantial projects that are taking up a major portion of my daylight hours.

If I can help you from my knowledge and experience then feel free to ask - if I can assist with overcming a hurdle through a suggestion or idea then I would be only too pleased to help in any way I can.

Just noticed you are online now so I expect you will see this in a moment.

Regards

Martin

Hi Martin,

  I think it might be quite advantageous to add the microwave  energy in the resonant gas cavity. But now that I think about it Stan had a device that incorporated 3 magnetrons in series right before his hydrogen gas gun. I'll try to dig up a picture to post for you. Meanwhile I still think I'm onto something with the fogger. Have you checked out any of the info on unipolar particle charging that I posted? 

http://hhoinformation.com/forum/topics/unipolar-particle-chargers#c...

At the atomic level, infrared energy elicits vibrational modes in a molecule through a change in the dipole moment, making it a useful frequency range for study of these energy states for molecules of the proper symmetry. Infrared spectroscopy examines absorption and transmission of photons in the infrared energy range, based on their frequency and intensity.[5]

Todd Miller said:

Pic show water fog mist is equal to wavelength of fog droplet. www.scaleofuniverse.com

I have used distilled water with the same effects. I won't dismiss the minerals, but there is more then minerals going on hear. Particle collision is helping free electrons to outer ring so that they may be consumed in the electron extraction circuit. In this pic you will notice the water mist droplet to be the same size as the wavelength as the infrared spectrum. So I imagine a very high pulse rep along with high intensity bombardment of the water fog with have some excellent outcomes with assisting in the destabilization of the water molecule. 

I'm wondering if anyone has tried igniting the mister/foggers at the florida aquarium.... they  produced a hydroxygen gas mixture by high frequencies  hmmmmmmmm

I have a friend who is CEO of her own company and holds eight patents for Ultrasound technology.  Her uses for the technology are primarily military contracts and NASA (when they had contracts.)

You are onto something, and that's all I can say.

Can anyone tell me the measurement of the infrared wavelength referred to in the pic is in nm 808nm, 905nm, etc?

I'm in search of IR laser diodes to hopefully add to my system.

Thank you for any help in advanced.

Todd Miller said:

At the atomic level, infrared energy elicits vibrational modes in a molecule through a change in the dipole moment, making it a useful frequency range for study of these energy states for molecules of the proper symmetry. Infrared spectroscopy examines absorption and transmission of photons in the infrared energy range, based on their frequency and intensity.[5]

Todd Miller said:

Pic show water fog mist is equal to wavelength of fog droplet. www.scaleofuniverse.com

I have used distilled water with the same effects. I won't dismiss the minerals, but there is more then minerals going on hear. Particle collision is helping free electrons to outer ring so that they may be consumed in the electron extraction circuit. In this pic you will notice the water mist droplet to be the same size as the wavelength as the infrared spectrum. So I imagine a very high pulse rep along with high intensity bombardment of the water fog with have some excellent outcomes with assisting in the destabilization of the water molecule. 

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