Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Russell Nagode on June 26, 2009 at 11:45pm

How is a Zero Hex C cell possible? Are the plates/tubes treated with Tim Brauneck's coating, or something else? How is it Certified? I am very interested to know this.

You're right, this is the way the industry needs to go. I don't want to make another system unless it is ZHC.

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Permalink Reply by Unca RaF on July 16, 2009 at 11:45pm

If you are using any stainless steel in your cell, you ARE going to produce HEX-CHROME according to a local Cleveland, Ohio area plater by the name of Aetna Plating. They've been in the plating business for decades and have been dealing with the Hex-Chrome issue with the EPA due to its toxicity. They claim no matter what you do to your SS plates, such as passivation or electropolishing, if you're using SS in the electrolysis process, you will produce Hex-Chrome as the SS dissolves. No doubt that passivation and/or electropolishing will remove most of the surface iron, but will leave the chromium on the surface... if you've ever seen SS plates that have undergone either of these processes, they look almost like they've been chrome plated... hence, they will still produce Hex-Chrome, but there will be little, if any, mud produced. You can also visually see that you're making Hex-Chrome by the yellowing color that develops in your electrolyte if its clear enough... we've got a professional Hex-Chrome test kit to measure the concentration... as the yellow color intensifies, the higher the concentration. You'd be surprised how quickly you can make the Hex-Chrome.

Now, if you decide to use the much more pricey, solid TITANIUM, or other exotic metal, you WILL NOT produce any HEXAVALENT CHROMIUM. The one problem with titanium is that you must use an exotic coating on the ANODE side of all the cell plates in order to produce any HHO. The one great thing about using the HSA coated TI plates is that they last much longer than other metals, and have been used under extreme conditions in industrial applications for decades - such as in saltwater desalination plants and to produce caustic chlorine bleach for water treatment. We (MileageSeekersHHO) have been recently experimenting and designing an extremely low current-leakage titanium cell, pictures of which you can see on this site. We believe that TI will become the future standard for marketable HHO cells, since the EPA will no doubt get involved in "police-ing" the HHO industry as it grows.

Unca RaF

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Permalink Reply by Russell Nagode on August 1, 2009 at 1:22pm

Been turning this over in my mind. If titanium can be used, could platinum also be used without producing Hex-C?

If so, then since the fossil fuel is being burned to the absoloute, what then is the need for a catalytic converter?

If you no longer need one, why not use the platinum put in the converters instead, to produce electrolysis cells?

This seems like a no-brainer to me.

Unca RaF said:

If you are using any stainless steel in your cell, you ARE going to produce HEX-CHROME according to a local Cleveland, Ohio area plater by the name of Aetna Plating. They've been in the plating business for decades and have been dealing with the Hex-Chrome issue with the EPA due to its toxicity. They claim no matter what you do to your SS plates, such as passivation or electropolishing, if you're using SS in the electrolysis process, you will produce Hex-Chrome as the SS dissolves. No doubt that passivation and/or electropolishing will remove most of the surface iron, but will leave the chromium on the surface... if you've ever seen SS plates that have undergone either of these processes, they look almost like they've been chrome plated... hence, they will still produce Hex-Chrome, but there will be little, if any, mud produced. You can also visually see that you're making Hex-Chrome by the yellowing color that develops in your electrolyte if its clear enough... we've got a professional Hex-Chrome test kit to measure the concentration... as the yellow color intensifies, the higher the concentration. You'd be surprised how quickly you can make the Hex-Chrome.

Now, if you decide to use the much more pricey, solid TITANIUM, or other exotic metal, you WILL NOT produce any HEXAVALENT CHROMIUM. The one problem with titanium is that you must use an exotic coating on the ANODE side of all the cell plates in order to produce any HHO. The one great thing about using the HSA coated TI plates is that they last much longer than other metals, and have been used under extreme conditions in industrial applications for decades - such as in saltwater desalination plants and to produce caustic chlorine bleach for water treatment. We (MileageSeekersHHO) have been recently experimenting and designing an extremely low current-leakage titanium cell, pictures of which you can see on this site. We believe that TI will become the future standard for marketable HHO cells, since the EPA will no doubt get involved in "police-ing" the HHO industry as it grows.

Unca RaF

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Permalink Reply by Christer Dirfeldt on August 1, 2009 at 4:01pm

I have thought of making a cell from platinum from a catalyst too, but it has stayed at the thought for me so far...

I have heard that platinum can be a small catalyst in the HHO making prosess, so it would be worth a try :-)

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Permalink Reply by Unca RaF on August 1, 2009 at 9:29pm

I've been told and would expect that platinum plates would be much more costly than consumers would want to pay for, even though I'll admit we've never priced them... even if someone would go to the trouble of "platinum plating" some other metal such as stainless steel sheet. Anyone want to put up the funds? We'll be glad to custom build the cell and flow test it with MileageSeekersHHO flow bench and test equipment. It might become that special something we've all been looking for!

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Permalink Reply by mike porosky on August 24, 2009 at 9:35pm

the problem with that is there is very little platnum in a catco just a couple of grams each. you would need much more to build a hho system from that. but plating ss in plat can work or just make a switch to titanium

Russell Nagode said:

Been turning this over in my mind. If titanium can be used, could platinum also be used without producing Hex-C?

If so, then since the fossil fuel is being burned to the absoloute, what then is the need for a catalytic converter?

If you no longer need one, why not use the platinum put in the converters instead, to produce electrolysis cells?

This seems like a no-brainer to me.

Unca RaF said:

If you are using any stainless steel in your cell, you ARE going to produce HEX-CHROME according to a local Cleveland, Ohio area plater by the name of Aetna Plating. They've been in the plating business for decades and have been dealing with the Hex-Chrome issue with the EPA due to its toxicity. They claim no matter what you do to your SS plates, such as passivation or electropolishing, if you're using SS in the electrolysis process, you will produce Hex-Chrome as the SS dissolves. No doubt that passivation and/or electropolishing will remove most of the surface iron, but will leave the chromium on the surface... if you've ever seen SS plates that have undergone either of these processes, they look almost like they've been chrome plated... hence, they will still produce Hex-Chrome, but there will be little, if any, mud produced. You can also visually see that you're making Hex-Chrome by the yellowing color that develops in your electrolyte if its clear enough... we've got a professional Hex-Chrome test kit to measure the concentration... as the yellow color intensifies, the higher the concentration. You'd be surprised how quickly you can make the Hex-Chrome.

Now, if you decide to use the much more pricey, solid TITANIUM, or other exotic metal, you WILL NOT produce any HEXAVALENT CHROMIUM. The one problem with titanium is that you must use an exotic coating on the ANODE side of all the cell plates in order to produce any HHO. The one great thing about using the HSA coated TI plates is that they last much longer than other metals, and have been used under extreme conditions in industrial applications for decades - such as in saltwater desalination plants and to produce caustic chlorine bleach for water treatment. We (MileageSeekersHHO) have been recently experimenting and designing an extremely low current-leakage titanium cell, pictures of which you can see on this site. We believe that TI will become the future standard for marketable HHO cells, since the EPA will no doubt get involved in "police-ing" the HHO industry as it grows.

Unca RaF

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Permalink Reply by Gary on August 27, 2009 at 10:30am

Is everyone going to just ignore the table sugar method? That's a heckova lot cheaper than titanium or platinum!

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Permalink Reply by Christer Dirfeldt on August 27, 2009 at 5:43pm

I agree with you Gary. Why make it safe and expensive, when you can make it safe and cheap?

Gary said:

Is everyone going to just ignore the table sugar method? That's a heckova lot cheaper than titanium or platinum!

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Permalink Reply by Karl on September 10, 2009 at 1:06am

I contacted the person(s) that were involved in the research making the determination regarding table sugar, this was his response...

************************
First, I doubt you are going to produce much chromium from electrolysis of stainless steel. However, if you did, there are certainly better ways to reduce the chromate (CrO4 2- or Cr2O7 2-) to Cr 3+ or chromium metal. The sugar works but is better/more efficient on industrial scale or in environmental remediation (soil or lakes). Also, if the original electrolysis didn't reduce the Cr(VI) as soon as it was produced, you could easily do an electrolysis of the wastewater - the same process used to chrome plate metals.

I can check the sugar to Cr proportions we used and provide them to you, but I think there are better ways to chemically reduce any Cr(VI) produced. In fact, if there is any Cr(VI) produced, which I doubt, why not just use aluminum electrodes or some other metal.

Bryan Bilyeu, PhD
Dual Degree Engineering Program Coordinator
Assistant Professor of Chemistry
Xavier University of Louisiana
New Orleans LA 70125
(504)520-5414

***********************

Gary said:

Is everyone going to just ignore the table sugar method? That's a heckova lot cheaper than titanium or platinum!

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Permalink Reply by Christer Dirfeldt on September 10, 2009 at 3:10am

Thanks Karl! That was a really good effort to get us all real information. We appreciate that :-)

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Permalink Reply by Gary on September 10, 2009 at 9:23pm

The man's suggestion of aluminum means he simply isn't into automotive hydrolysys and unaware of the needs. The point about sugar in personal use as opposed to industrial use is that it's a simple fix anyone and everyone can and should do. If we needed chemicals, virtually Nobody would be doing it and whatever crud is in the old electrolyte goes into the gutter, toilet, yard or neighbor's fence.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Swenson on September 11, 2009 at 11:56am

I run a kit made by Keith Wagner co-owner of S&KHHO Fuelsystems.com. This is an 8 plate dry cell with a closed loop system..very nice kit the only kit recomended at the HHO games this last Feb. for certification. This kit uses potassium carbonate for the electrolyte.. this solution makes the cell run cooler and when I gave Keith a call about the concerns of the poduction of HEX he assured me this kit produces none.. I've been running my system over 6 months now and the electrolyte is still clear......Give them a shout at www.s&khhofuelsystems.com



Gary said:

The man's suggestion of aluminum means he simply isn't into automotive hydrolysys and unaware of the needs. The point about sugar in personal use as opposed to industrial use is that it's a simple fix anyone and everyone can and should do. If we needed chemicals, virtually Nobody would be doing it and whatever crud is in the old electrolyte goes into the gutter, toilet, yard or neighbor's fence.

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