Electrolyte is very important in Hydrogen Production. How can we improve it to increase Production , reduce Heat , reduce high Current Flow

I am using Potassium Carbonate at the moment.  KOH is too caustic and might corrode my Cell over a period of time.

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Hi, This is Kim from Korea. I am still testing of truck hho kit( 24volt quad cell , dry type).The truck engine has 14,700 cc .

I bought in one hho set from USA and installed it last September.  KOH electrolyte 20 percent was recommended by the manufacturer.  Faied and faied because of PWM part.   Now I installed third time.  Amperes 30amps, 24volts, Experienced three times  failure of cntinuous running of hho because of PWM failure.  The last information from my supplier is like this,

1.25LPM~1.5LPM at 15amps of 24volt ( quad stack cell). Not more amperes not lower amperes. Here winter weather is cold as low as minus 20 degree celcius( minus 4degree F). I need either isopropyl or dense KOH.  When I used 10 percent KOH electrolyte No ice. But "ran away "happened. the PWM fryed.

I am going to test this cell soon this month again when the weather permits.

 

Pls let us have more Info about your Cell. Specifications, Make and Model. I suspect, the Dry-Cell does not have enough Neutral Plates, to operate with 24 Volt.

Kim Sir, How many plates are in each stack?  To work properly you would need 2 Unipolar plates and 9 bipolar plates (N's).  Total of 11 minimum.  This will give you 2.4 to 2.6 volts per cell depending on your alternator output.  If you have less than this you will need to disassemble the reactor and reconfigure it so you have at least 2 stacks totaling 21 plates or if you have enough plates go to 3 stacks totaling 31 plates.  This should work in the winter but in the summer you might want to add one more plate per stack to run a 2.18 to 2.3 volts per cell which would be better.  (2 stacks with 23 plates)

chulho Kim said:

Hi, This is Kim from Korea. I am still testing of truck hho kit( 24volt quad cell , dry type).The truck engine has 14,700 cc .

I bought in one hho set from USA and installed it last September.  KOH electrolyte 20 percent was recommended by the manufacturer.  Faied and faied because of PWM part.   Now I installed third time.  Amperes 30amps, 24volts, Experienced three times  failure of cntinuous running of hho because of PWM failure.  The last information from my supplier is like this,

1.25LPM~1.5LPM at 15amps of 24volt ( quad stack cell). Not more amperes not lower amperes. Here winter weather is cold as low as minus 20 degree celcius( minus 4degree F). I need either isopropyl or dense KOH.  When I used 10 percent KOH electrolyte No ice. But "ran away "happened. the PWM fryed.

I am going to test this cell soon this month again when the weather permits.

 



Hans Peter GROTE said:

Pls let us have more Info about your Cell. Specifications, Make and Model. I suspect, the Dry-Cell does not have enough Neutral Plates, to operate with 24 Volt.

Dear Hans,

My cell is "quad" stack, 12inch x12inchX7inch,  4electrodes, ( -NNNNNNNNNNN+ +NNNNNNNNNNN- ) , 24volt is connected to each stack . I believe 11N s are enough for 24volt cell. One  PWM and controller is connected. 



Carter said:

Kim Sir, How many plates are in each stack?  To work properly you would need 2 Unipolar plates and 9 bipolar plates (N's).  Total of 11 minimum.  This will give you 2.4 to 2.6 volts per cell depending on your alternator output.  If you have less than this you will need to disassemble the reactor and reconfigure it so you have at least 2 stacks totaling 21 plates or if you have enough plates go to 3 stacks totaling 31 plates.  This should work in the winter but in the summer you might want to add one more plate per stack to run a 2.18 to 2.3 volts per cell which would be better.  (2 stacks with 23 plates)

 

Carter, Thanks for your information.  Each stack has 13plates( 2 electrodes,11 Ns, total 26plates).

According to the manufacturer, I should have run the stacks at 15amps x24volts. Not more . I ran the cell at 30amps ,25amps.  It is winter here and rather cold usually minus 5~10 degree. In the afternoon at 5degree C , the cell ran good for 30 minutes. The starting duty cycle was between 55-64%..  The next day  it ran one and half hours without problem at 25 amps.  Gradually the duty cycle went down to 20 percent.  suddenly the PWM off sign was displayed , 100 percent duty rate.  The manufacturer recommended me to use thinner  KOH. My present KOH is 10 percent or so. As the weather is rather cold, I had to use thicker KOH.  I feel I should try at 5 percent  KOH  at 15 amps  . DO you agree? Any suggestion?  I appreciate your guid in this matter. 
chulho Kim said:

Hi, This is Kim from Korea. I am still testing of truck hho kit( 24volt quad cell , dry type).The truck engine has 14,700 cc .

I bought in one hho set from USA and installed it last September.  KOH electrolyte 20 percent was recommended by the manufacturer.  Faied and faied because of PWM part.   Now I installed third time.  Amperes 30amps, 24volts, Experienced three times  failure of cntinuous running of hho because of PWM failure.  The last information from my supplier is like this,

1.25LPM~1.5LPM at 15amps of 24volt ( quad stack cell). Not more amperes not lower amperes. Here winter weather is cold as low as minus 20 degree celcius( minus 4degree F). I need either isopropyl or dense KOH.  When I used 10 percent KOH electrolyte No ice. But "ran away "happened. the PWM fryed.

I am going to test this cell soon this month again when the weather permits.

 

Kim Sir,  Maybe I am misunderstanding your set up.  Are the two 13 plate reactors in series and share the same electrolyte? Do you have an amp meter to see how many amps you are drawing?  I think that you have two 13 plate reactors running in parallel.  You could be drawing 60 amps when you think you are drawing 30.  The term stack means they are in series and you would then have only 2 stacks of 13 plates each, which is about 2 volts per cell.  When in series the stacks divide amps.  In my opinion you need to make sure these are in series and then you might be able to run the strong mixture (15%) of KOH.  Amperage will be divided by 2.  How many amps is your PWM rated at?

chulho Kim said:



Hans Peter GROTE said:

Pls let us have more Info about your Cell. Specifications, Make and Model. I suspect, the Dry-Cell does not have enough Neutral Plates, to operate with 24 Volt.

Dear Hans,

My cell is "quad" stack, 12inch x12inchX7inch,  4electrodes, ( -NNNNNNNNNNN+ +NNNNNNNNNNN- ) , 24volt is connected to each stack . I believe 11N s are enough for 24volt cell. One  PWM and controller is connected. 


          Carter, Thank you for the information.  Mine cell  has 26plates. The first 13 plates are connected to 24volt , the second 13 plates also are connected to 24volt power. Each cell is connected  in parrell, not in series to the power of 24volt. I have no ammeter . Instead I am using one 24volt PWM and controller. The controller shows Amperes, Duty cycle, Volt and Herz. on its display.  My PWM is CCPWM  so the duty cycle is changing according to the state of on-off pulsing frequency. As my PWM was designed to show voltage of 12 volt system, 24volt power is shown as 12volt.  This is an example of display on my controller : A-D ; 30amps 55%    V-11.7volts 65HZ  .  When I started to run the cell, immediately the display was like A-D; 5amps  100%  V-11.7volts  60HZ But the display figures continues to change and sets up at around  : A ( 29-30.2 amps) D( 55-64 %)  V-11.9-12.5 volts  HZ -- continuous change.    I thought it fine to work. after I watched running 30 minutes ok.

The next day my customer called me and reported that He experienced 1 and half hours ok . The last time he saw the display was 25 amps  20% duty cycle, 12volt   Hz -no memory.  The  display showed that PWM OFF,  100%  NO other display.

The electrolyte is 10 % KOH in order to avoid freezing here in Korea.

 

The manufacturer recommended to use less  amps such as 15amps instead of 25 amps set up.  He also recommended to use

thinner KOH  . I am afraid to get a frozen cell if I dilute the electrolyte too low. I  experienced that thicker KOH promotes conductivity.

 Connection of cells " in series"  insead of "parrell" will be tried as you recommended.   Thank you for this advice.  In this case the voltage per each plate will be very low like 1 volt.  (Actual voltage is distributed like 24 volts/24 plates ).Am I  understanding correct?    One volt per plate instead of 2 volt is a concern of mine. Please comment on this again.

 According to the manufacturer, <my PWM is rated to 150 amps max.  The PWM may not sustain when duty cycle shows less than 10 % at 25 amps or 30amps >

(1)I am going to test  " thinner"( 5%) KOH,  "Inseries" , at 15 amps first.

(2) If it works , I should try  different KOH or amps after seeing the display figure. 

 

 I need time to replace the broken PWM with newer spare on a warm day.  My customer is located  300km away down in South. Before I go there I would like to learn more knowledge based on experiences from many expertises.

 

Any  more comment on my correct set up?  Your advice will be helping me to understand the problem and solution.

 I am trying to promote hho in Korea by keeping a sizeable blogs in Korean ( www.hho.so )

I have found lots of problems and need exact and refined skills and knowledge before I recommend my customers to buy or install it by himself.


Carter said:

Kim Sir,  Maybe I am misunderstanding your set up.  Are the two 13 plate reactors in series and share the same electrolyte? Do you have an amp meter to see how many amps you are drawing?  I think that you have two 13 plate reactors running in parallel.  You could be drawing 60 amps when you think you are drawing 30.  The term stack means they are in series and you would then have only 2 stacks of 13 plates each, which is about 2 volts per cell.  When in series the stacks divide amps.  In my opinion you need to make sure these are in series and then you might be able to run the strong mixture (15%) of KOH.  Amperage will be divided by 2.  How many amps is your PWM rated at?

chulho Kim said:



Hans Peter GROTE said:

Pls let us have more Info about your Cell. Specifications, Make and Model. I suspect, the Dry-Cell does not have enough Neutral Plates, to operate with 24 Volt.

Dear Hans,

My cell is "quad" stack, 12inch x12inchX7inch,  4electrodes, ( -NNNNNNNNNNN+ +NNNNNNNNNNN- ) , 24volt is connected to each stack . I believe 11N s are enough for 24volt cell. One  PWM and controller is connected. 

Kim Sir, It is not really serial but still parallel just put a jumper between the two positives and one positive connection.  That should cut the amps in half.  Some one else can correct me if I am wrong.  It would be the same as -nnnnnnnnnnn+nnnnnnnnnnn- but having 2 positive plates that are connected together.  Make sure the jumper wire is large enough to carry the load.  Using one 30 amp PWM is still where your problem will be.  If you run it at 25 amps connected like I suggest then each stack will only get 12.5 amps.  If that will make enough HHO is the question.  I would try it with out the PWM and 10% KOH.  That size reactor should be able to draw around 50 amps per stack and not over heat.  

chulho Kim said:


          Carter, Thank you for the information.  Mine cell  has 26plates. The first 13 plates are connected to 24volt , the second 13 plates also are connected to 24volt power. Each cell is connected  in parrell, not in series to the power of 24volt. I have no ammeter . Instead I am using one 24volt PWM and controller. The controller shows Amperes, Duty cycle, Volt and Herz. on its display.  My PWM is CCPWM  so the duty cycle is changing according to the state of on-off pulsing frequency. As my PWM was designed to show voltage of 12 volt system, 24volt power is shown as 12volt.  This is an example of display on my controller : A-D ; 30amps 55%    V-11.7volts 65HZ  .  When I started to run the cell, immediately the display was like A-D; 5amps  100%  V-11.7volts  60HZ But the display figures continues to change and sets up at around  : A ( 29-30.2 amps) D( 55-64 %)  V-11.9-12.5 volts  HZ -- continuous change.    I thought it fine to work. after I watched running 30 minutes ok.

The next day my customer called me and reported that He experienced 1 and half hours ok . The last time he saw the display was 25 amps  20% duty cycle, 12volt   Hz -no memory.  The  display showed that PWM OFF,  100%  NO other display.

The electrolyte is 10 % KOH in order to avoid freezing here in Korea.

 

The manufacturer recommended to use less  amps such as 15amps instead of 25 amps set up.  He also recommended to use

thinner KOH  . I am afraid to get a frozen cell if I dilute the electrolyte too low. I  experienced that thicker KOH promotes conductivity.

 Connection of cells " in series"  insead of "parrell" will be tried as you recommended.   Thank you for this advice.  In this case the voltage per each plate will be very low like 1 volt.  (Actual voltage is distributed like 24 volts/24 plates ).Am I  understanding correct?    One volt per plate instead of 2 volt is a concern of mine. Please comment on this again.

 According to the manufacturer, <my PWM is rated to 150 amps max.  The PWM may not sustain when duty cycle shows less than 10 % at 25 amps or 30amps >

(1)I am going to test  " thinner"( 5%) KOH,  "Inseries" , at 15 amps first.

(2) If it works , I should try  different KOH or amps after seeing the display figure. 

 

 I need time to replace the broken PWM with newer spare on a warm day.  My customer is located  300km away down in South. Before I go there I would like to learn more knowledge based on experiences from many expertises.

 

Any  more comment on my correct set up?  Your advice will be helping me to understand the problem and solution.

 I am trying to promote hho in Korea by keeping a sizeable blogs in Korean ( www.hho.so )

I have found lots of problems and need exact and refined skills and knowledge before I recommend my customers to buy or install it by himself.


Carter said:

Kim Sir,  Maybe I am misunderstanding your set up.  Are the two 13 plate reactors in series and share the same electrolyte? Do you have an amp meter to see how many amps you are drawing?  I think that you have two 13 plate reactors running in parallel.  You could be drawing 60 amps when you think you are drawing 30.  The term stack means they are in series and you would then have only 2 stacks of 13 plates each, which is about 2 volts per cell.  When in series the stacks divide amps.  In my opinion you need to make sure these are in series and then you might be able to run the strong mixture (15%) of KOH.  Amperage will be divided by 2.  How many amps is your PWM rated at?

chulho Kim said:



Hans Peter GROTE said:

Pls let us have more Info about your Cell. Specifications, Make and Model. I suspect, the Dry-Cell does not have enough Neutral Plates, to operate with 24 Volt.

Dear Hans,

My cell is "quad" stack, 12inch x12inchX7inch,  4electrodes, ( -NNNNNNNNNNN+ +NNNNNNNNNNN- ) , 24volt is connected to each stack . I believe 11N s are enough for 24volt cell. One  PWM and controller is connected. 

      Carter, Thanks again for the advice.  Still it is not clear to understand you. Let me put number 1 through 26 from the first plate to the last plate. #1  ( minus)  #2 (N)  #3(N)   #4(N) ..........#10(N)  #11(N)  #12(N)  #13(positive), #14(Positive)

#15(N) ................#25(N)  #26(minus)  . Presently I connected positives to #13,14.  Minus to #1 and #26. What is your suggestion?  Put a jumper to where?   Sorry I do not figure out " word jumper" Is it not a cable wire?  Pease explain it  for me . You seem to mean that I should use one positive plate instead of two positive plates. It means  that I should connect #13 and #14 plate making total plates number to 26 only leaving no space between 13 and 14 plate.   Is my understanding  correct ? 

Carter said:

Kim Sir, It is not really serial but still parallel just put a jumper between the two positives and one positive connection.  That should cut the amps in half.  Some one else can correct me if I am wrong.  It would be the same as -nnnnnnnnnnn+nnnnnnnnnnn- but having 2 positive plates that are connected together.  Make sure the jumper wire is large enough to carry the load.  Using one 30 amp PWM is still where your problem will be.  If you run it at 25 amps connected like I suggest then each stack will only get 12.5 amps.  If that will make enough HHO is the question.  I would try it with out the PWM and 10% KOH.  That size reactor should be able to draw around 50 amps per stack and not over heat.  

chulho Kim said:


          Carter, Thank you for the information.  Mine cell  has 26plates. The first 13 plates are connected to 24volt , the second 13 plates also are connected to 24volt power. Each cell is connected  in parrell, not in series to the power of 24volt. I have no ammeter . Instead I am using one 24volt PWM and controller. The controller shows Amperes, Duty cycle, Volt and Herz. on its display.  My PWM is CCPWM  so the duty cycle is changing according to the state of on-off pulsing frequency. As my PWM was designed to show voltage of 12 volt system, 24volt power is shown as 12volt.  This is an example of display on my controller : A-D ; 30amps 55%    V-11.7volts 65HZ  .  When I started to run the cell, immediately the display was like A-D; 5amps  100%  V-11.7volts  60HZ But the display figures continues to change and sets up at around  : A ( 29-30.2 amps) D( 55-64 %)  V-11.9-12.5 volts  HZ -- continuous change.    I thought it fine to work. after I watched running 30 minutes ok.

The next day my customer called me and reported that He experienced 1 and half hours ok . The last time he saw the display was 25 amps  20% duty cycle, 12volt   Hz -no memory.  The  display showed that PWM OFF,  100%  NO other display.

The electrolyte is 10 % KOH in order to avoid freezing here in Korea.

 

The manufacturer recommended to use less  amps such as 15amps instead of 25 amps set up.  He also recommended to use

thinner KOH  . I am afraid to get a frozen cell if I dilute the electrolyte too low. I  experienced that thicker KOH promotes conductivity.

 Connection of cells " in series"  insead of "parrell" will be tried as you recommended.   Thank you for this advice.  In this case the voltage per each plate will be very low like 1 volt.  (Actual voltage is distributed like 24 volts/24 plates ).Am I  understanding correct?    One volt per plate instead of 2 volt is a concern of mine. Please comment on this again.

 According to the manufacturer, <my PWM is rated to 150 amps max.  The PWM may not sustain when duty cycle shows less than 10 % at 25 amps or 30amps >

(1)I am going to test  " thinner"( 5%) KOH,  "Inseries" , at 15 amps first.

(2) If it works , I should try  different KOH or amps after seeing the display figure. 

 

 I need time to replace the broken PWM with newer spare on a warm day.  My customer is located  300km away down in South. Before I go there I would like to learn more knowledge based on experiences from many expertises.

 

Any  more comment on my correct set up?  Your advice will be helping me to understand the problem and solution.

 I am trying to promote hho in Korea by keeping a sizeable blogs in Korean ( www.hho.so )

I have found lots of problems and need exact and refined skills and knowledge before I recommend my customers to buy or install it by himself.


Carter said:

Kim Sir,  Maybe I am misunderstanding your set up.  Are the two 13 plate reactors in series and share the same electrolyte? Do you have an amp meter to see how many amps you are drawing?  I think that you have two 13 plate reactors running in parallel.  You could be drawing 60 amps when you think you are drawing 30.  The term stack means they are in series and you would then have only 2 stacks of 13 plates each, which is about 2 volts per cell.  When in series the stacks divide amps.  In my opinion you need to make sure these are in series and then you might be able to run the strong mixture (15%) of KOH.  Amperage will be divided by 2.  How many amps is your PWM rated at?

chulho Kim said:



Hans Peter GROTE said:

Pls let us have more Info about your Cell. Specifications, Make and Model. I suspect, the Dry-Cell does not have enough Neutral Plates, to operate with 24 Volt.

Dear Hans,

My cell is "quad" stack, 12inch x12inchX7inch,  4electrodes, ( -NNNNNNNNNNN+ +NNNNNNNNNNN- ) , 24volt is connected to each stack . I believe 11N s are enough for 24volt cell. One  PWM and controller is connected. 

"Please explain it for me . You seem to mean that I should use one positive plate instead of two positive plates. It means that I should connect #13 and #14 plate making total plates number to 26 only leaving no space between 13 and 14 plate. Is my understanding correct ?"

Kim Sir,  I am taking it that there is no electrolyte between positive plates 13 and 14.  You connect these two plates together with a jumper.  They do not need to touch each other and have one positive wire connected to one of them but since both are connected together they will act as one.  Half the current will go to the first stack and the other half will go to the second stack.  This will cut the current in half and allow you to run stronger mixture of KOH with out a PWM.  Production will have be controlled by the amount of KOH you add not the PWM. Since you have a 10% mixture now start with that but you might be able to add more.   I strongly suggest you connect a amp gauge to the positive wire using a shunt so you can accurately measure the current being used and monitor it.    

   Carter, Thanks again,  The idea of "jumping",  ampere gauge to monitor, adjustment of KOH. I will post later after the trial,

Carter said:

"Please explain it for me . You seem to mean that I should use one positive plate instead of two positive plates. It means that I should connect #13 and #14 plate making total plates number to 26 only leaving no space between 13 and 14 plate. Is my understanding correct ?"

Kim Sir,  I am taking it that there is no electrolyte between positive plates 13 and 14.  You connect these two plates together with a jumper.  They do not need to touch each other and have one positive wire connected to one of them but since both are connected together they will act as one.  Half the current will go to the first stack and the other half will go to the second stack.  This will cut the current in half and allow you to run stronger mixture of KOH with out a PWM.  Production will have be controlled by the amount of KOH you add not the PWM. Since you have a 10% mixture now start with that but you might be able to add more.   I strongly suggest you connect a amp gauge to the positive wire using a shunt so you can accurately measure the current being used and monitor it.    

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