I just built a flat plate HHO Generator with 18 plates [+NNN-NNN+ +NNN-NNN+] It’s performing very well. It reaches steady state at 25A, produces 2 LPM and runs along at 135 degrees. I’m using baking soda at 1.5 teaspoons/gal. I view this as a two cell generator. Each cell consisting of +NNN-NNN+

It occurred to me that instead of using a pulsed wave, I could sequence the cells one after the other, flip flopping between the cells. I'm going to be building a three cell generator with 21 plates [+NN-NN+ +NN-NN+ +NN-NN+] and would like to try sequencing all three cells.

But I’d first like to know if the pulse wave really works. I've spent a lot of time searching YouTube for a test where volume temperature current and dielectric are all documented. Watching bubbles without measuring the volume does not satisfy me. Not knowing the temperature and the current leaves the results ambiguous.

Bob Campbell in Chico, CA

Does anyone have real test results proving that pulsed waves really increase efficiency or is it just hype?

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Replies to This Discussion

I can't say from personal experiance that pulsing will increase output. The best I can offer is I watched a video of stan meyers tubuar cell puting out some serious gas. You could watch it build pressure on the gauge on the cell very quickly.
Do you have any build specs you could share about your cell?
Plate size, spacing, overall measurements? Post some pics on your "my page"?
hmmm... not sure on the Pulse width Modulation.... it should increase production as you near the harmonic of the system... but i have not tested personally... as for sequencing... i beleieve that would be a way to get the heat issue under control, but you have no issue there... in sequencing the cells, i believe that you would efectively halve your out put as only one cell would be on at any given point.... i believe the PWM would be worth the try... not terribly costly...and besides a DC motor speed controller is a PWM and can be found all over from R/C cars to factory equipment... while many are not adjustable as they are it takes a 2.00 rheostat to make it adjustable... just a thought
Alan, I'm not so sure about the dc motor controllers due to the low frequency they use. I think it was ZFF who found that production improved vastly with freq. over 10k as compared to 200-500hz. I agree with the statement about bubbles. I've seen fog look cool but produce very little, and my own units appear to slow down the bubbles when producing more. They're actually just making bigger bubbles.
We had a video on HHOinfo that theorized the frequency harmonic for HHO, but the problem is that it's not constant for some reason; it moves around.
Bob! Try and reverse the polarity on your unit before changing it around and retest it. You may be surprised.
If your unit is using the 0-rings, then I'd see no reason to make it a series unit. That thing is getting some amazing output as it is!
Gary said:
Alan, I'm not so sure about the dc motor controllers due to the low frequency they use. I think it was ZFF who found that production improved vastly with freq. over 10k as compared to 200-500hz. I agree with the statement about bubbles. I've seen fog look cool but produce very little, and my own units appear to slow down the bubbles when producing more. They're actually just making bigger bubbles.
We had a video on HHOinfo that theorized the frequency harmonic for HHO, but the problem is that it's not constant for some reason; it moves around.
Bob! Try and reverse the polarity on your unit before changing it around and retest it. You may be surprised.
If your unit is using the 0-rings, then I'd see no reason to make it a series unit. That thing is getting some amazing output as it is!

I've tryed several configurations and found this one to be the most productive. I was surprised when I reversed the polarity. The output was the same.

I've installed this unit on my diesel truck so I can't experiment with it anymore, but I'm going to build several more. I've got a lot of ideas and I learned a lot of this model. I'm convinced that a PWM is good for adjusting the amps while maintaining the system in the sweet spot. A higher amount of electrolyte will get a cold unit up to full production right away. On a long trip the PWM will keep it from over heating and drawing too many amps. There may be some small benefit to pulsing but I think Zero Fossil Fuel is on the right track with his self-compensating tank circuit.
Personally from all the studying I have done as well as experimentation; I think you are on the right path. I have read some of Sid Youngs ideals and found the best if not the most inexpensive route to take. Who said progress was cheap? I agree with your statement below but agree with Gary about the PWM losing its frequency based on various variables such as temp. etc. I base my opinions on studying others trails & tribulations as well as some of my own setbacks. I think that a 7 cell series cell may be the best route to undertake to keep the heat factor at bay as well as the amps lower. I added a comment to one of your photo's.

" I'm convinced that a PWM is good for adjusting the amps while maintaining the system in the sweet spot. A higher amount of electrolyte will get a cold unit up to full production right away. On a long trip the PWM will keep it from over heating and drawing too many amps. There may be some small benefit to pulsing but I think Zero Fossil Fuel is on the right track with his self-compensating tank circuit."
Just joined your group (newbie to the forum altogether). Believe I met Bob at HomeDepot?

My humble two cents... much of the thermal issue may be attributed to inefficiencies of the electrical design. Of course ph balance, material composite, material size, plate air-gap, and even shape (magnetics) all are factors in this. Besides having worked in the technical arena for some time, I have read in some white papers that cells in parallel configuration (non-serial, daisy chain) are measured at the cell to operate at ~25% of the acually source, whereas the remainder translates to heat. Peronally I will be verifying this for myself. Call me a skeptic...

I believe that the solution is to understand the "conductive" load. From what I can tell the modulation of the source is simply changing the duty cycle that is delivered to the load. Hence 25% with a result of >temp,
Do any of you have experience in testing/validating electrolites (Im thinking PH tabs)?

Just a note to Bob. I nicknamed your style cell a "sandwich", since it's stacked thin in layers!
Gary that's not a sandwich but a coronary waiting to happen.
Rod said:
Gary that's not a sandwich but a coronary waiting to happen.
A Wendy's Triple has as much value as a Series Cell Generator!!! Yum!
I thing - there is going to be a point in which HHO production ws frequency is going to have max. But - In my believe - to find that point is going to be difficult. There are too many different factors. Some of them are - plate material, temperature, electrolyte consistence, even cell shape. Working on my SHD i will try to get this point and follow it consistently. But for now - no time for that. If someone have done kind of research - please let me know. To implement something like that in SHD is not going to be a problem. For more info on SHD go to HHOStop.com -Electronics.
To anyone interested look Zerofossilfuel vid 181 my work has taken me in the path of measurements at the micro level Cheers Spodie Odie
Hi Bob,

How are you...

My first experience using pulse waves was around early part of 2007... In my honest opinion- it only acts or functions like a resistor block. This is just a way to control thermal or amperage runaways.

I tried using a ZFF type recently... but I am not satisfied as well. Since I dont use baking sodas or KOH or any of those popularly promoted electrolyte catalysts - I dont have the same problem anymore.

I told you already what I use in a not so distant email if you recall.

I find success with straight DC already and sequencing the cells is still a better approach. A particular type of config will behave differently with the strength of the electrolyte. But of course, we all wanted to see the best config that will use less electrolyte, less temp, less amperage. But can accomodate More current or Voltage without any increase in Amperes. This can be done without PWM... Stan Meyer and Dingel - both used VIC's... Voltage Inducer Circuits... Dingel calls his' Voltage Exciter. Using this is perfect for perfect cell configs. A Perfect Cell Config is something like what I have described above. I dont mean to step in anyones business by what I have said... I am not saying PWM's dont work, but in my honest opinion, it works under a certain type of condition... like all other system does. So- for example, if the only electrolyte solution available in your locality is KOH or BS.... then - a good PWM will keep your cells cool and stable. Unless there is a PWM or a Wave altering system that can resonate the frequency of water. But this is still going to be a hit or miss thing.

I think your plates are cool! nice choice of color - Pink! :-)

Take Care, Cheers!

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